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IQ is one thing. Knowing what to do with it is another.

Discussion in 'Intelligence and Brainpower' started by Mohsin, May 26, 2017.

  1. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    I really liked this idea and suggested some potential projects. Does anyone else like the idea of working on a project together?

    My initial suggestions were these, but I'd be interested in hearing other ideas. Perhaps I could get some feedback on my ideas. Don't be too polite to criticize. If you think they are beyond our abilities or just bad choices or whatever, let me know.

    A few of my ideas for projects:

    Developing Artificial Intelligence
    Developing Brain/Computer interfaces
    Space Colonization
    Life Extension
    Developing a Better Internet
    Use cryptocurrencies, crowdfunding or something else to finance technology development

  2. Creedinger

    Creedinger Well-Known Member IQ: 120+

    Im in.

    develop approach which collects input itself and can process generic input based on good predefined components (instincts) and learning algorithms. Data Collection cannot be performed with our resources.

    Too costly and requires centralized effort (location wise). Musk the noob is already working on it lol.

    Space colo:
    Nooooo my life is too short for earth alone ;)

    Life extension:
    Biologists Gogo. How expensive is an DNA sequencer or do we have some engineers around us?

    Better Internetz:
    Define better. More cat pics?

    Ok im in. You provide the capital and I
    Provide good potato salad (im German so I can make a really good one). In case no one else participates we need a good idea, so see above.

    I want to add cloudbased, open source, open access, individualized system, app (iOS and android of course), community based, philosophical/computer science/psychology interdisciplinary approach, philosophical school dependent recommendations ( see individualized ) - output dependant on input ( maybe combinable with your ai goal ) to achieve happiness, use case time less than 5 minutes a day (people spend too much time on their cellphones anyways) ....$$$?

    Need to go to bed.. Creedinger go home you are drunk !
    Glimmer likes this.
  3. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    The decision to work on such a project is different from the issue of exactly how it would work. We have a couple people with experience at this already who have some pretty good ideas on how to proceed. But that doesn't mean we have all the answers. At least, not yet.

    Do you have some idea how to create the instincts and learning algorithms you're talking about? I was thinking more along the lines of creating a virtual neural network that evolves that sort of thing through experience. When you say data collection cannot be performed with our resources, perhaps you're thinking of the massive amounts of data that are usually used to train neural networks. I have a way to deal with that which makes it unnecessary to collect any data for that purpose.

    It would be costly, but we are working on ways to raise funds for all this. I don't know if everyone would have to be at the same location to collaborate. There would probably have to be one main location, but others could be involved at other places. We have only one person who really has the expertise for this at the moment, so having a centralized location for a team of one is easy enough.

    Yes, life is too short. Maybe we do life extension before space colonies, eh?

    We do have someone who has experience in genetic engineering and access to the equipment for that, but a lot of life extension projects don't involve genetic engineering.

    Yeah, we were pretty vague on that when we came up with the list, but I think the idea is to rethink the whole thing and see what could be improved. It's not hard to come up with ideas on how it could be improved. Less lag time waiting for servers to respond? More security against hacking? Some kind of structural aspect that makes DDoS attacks impractical? More bandwidth? More decentralized? No need to pay an ISP for broadband? Accessible in remote locations?

    I'm not saying we can do all that, but the project idea is to try to improve it, we have not tried to pre-define what the improvements would be.

    We are working on raising capital for all this.

    I'm not sure what you have in mind there. Some kind of app it sounds like, but the rest is unclear.
  4. ARLaBaere

    ARLaBaere Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    I find that it is exceedingly difficult to absorb the wants and desires of the self, and from there to the outside. Firstly, we must use our intelligence to understand and evaluate our inner dialogue, and, from there, we must translate these thoughts into symbols recognizable to others, and to actions. Discovery is a difficulty of immense and burdensome attempt. These are the pressures to perform, to know, and to understand. Learning to find true comprehension, to reach self-actualization, and to absorb disappointment is a cumbersome challenge. As discussed, it is dangerous to hold the perception of mere knowledge, and the effort must be disciplined. How do we understand the needs that are buried too deeply in the contemplations of endless distress?

    Patience is a crucial contemplation of intelligence, a deep draw of learning. Mistakes shall be made, efforts shall be put forth, and we shall struggle in an extremity of fearful distress. Intelligence might illumine what we despise, what we contemplate in grim redolence and reluctance. It is a grave pain to experience the lowness of bewilderment and strain forever spreading through aches and through crevasses of untold time. What is intelligence? We might be the pinnacle of realization, we might carry an immaculate internal dialogue, but it is the fruit of dedication and patience to reach beyond our brain.

    I write carefully, I discover an excellent addition to previous heuristics, and I await. I form my thoughts through careful learning and deliberation. How are we to improve our thoughts of confused and bewildering pain? Eruditeness, teamwork, and introspection are critical. These thoughts of untouchable and difficult deliberation remain a force deathly, alone, only to be excavated by a keen mind.
    Kegs, Mohsin and Cornucopia like this.
  5. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    Teamwork you say. Is there much interest in that here?
  6. Kegs

    Kegs Active Member Unclaimed IQ

    it has been addressed in another thread focusing on a larger group project.
    Glimmer likes this.
  7. Kegs

    Kegs Active Member Unclaimed IQ

    your best yet.
  8. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    Really? Where is that thread?
  9. albinoblanke

    albinoblanke Member Claimed IQ: 140+

    There is this thing called neuro-evolution which are algorithms that try to mimic the way the brain works. It looks pretty promising but it lacks speed and our brain has billions of neurons and neuronnetworks, we'll need a very powerful computer to have billions of 'neurons' in Ne. The link below shows it in action on some Mario game.

    I find that a creation of a questioning or curiosity algorithm often begin with thinking in the wrong direction. Most people try to create an algorithm that wants to ask questions in a way of, what I call, "adding" of knowledge, the AI would be programmed to ask. I think we should create an algorithm that is able to recognise area's where knowledge is lacking. This means that the AI should have some basic knowledge and when it, for example, faces a problem, it should be forced to ask a question to obtain more knowledge or search for more knowledge in order to solve that problem. The ability to recognise lacking of knowledge or solutions could lead to the AI learning that obtaining knowledge is great for solving problems. This "ability" should be very sensitive, sensitive enough for the AI to be able to solve problems and for the AI to being able to 'wonder' about itself and its surroundings. Don't make it too sensitive though.

    If you look at humans you can see this pattern where need influences knowledge. Almost everyone learns something because they need knowledge to solve a problem which could be from solving a math problem to trying to become a teacher. Nobody is 'programmed' to ask questions, everyone is 'programmed' to ask questions when needed.

    This is why most people don't have any knowledge about the de Broglie wavelength because they think they don't need to have that knowledge. They do not have a problem or lacking of knowledge in their lives that demands knowledge about the de Broglie wavelength. We, for example, do. That is the reason we are on this forum after all, we need this to fill some unsatisfactory, obtain some lacked knowledge or just to share information because we want to, we need to. This is, what I think, a way to true AI.
    Creedinger likes this.
  10. Creedinger

    Creedinger Well-Known Member IQ: 120+

    9 * 6 = x *JustJoking*

    I have heard and read that it is a hard problem to motivate an AI. Your example is a very impressive neural network optimized to make mario reach the end of the level in as little time as possible.
    The motivation was given to the neural network implicitly by the programmer and is no part of the AI itself in the sense that it did not generate as part of the process (in contrast to the ablity to master exactly this level).

    Intuitively I would say that a lot of our motivation to do X comes from a lack of Y.
    A drive to do X in dependency of Y is created, which gets us out of a state of timeless mental stasis - DATH (or halted program to be less dramatic).

    So in order to program an AI one needs to provide intrinsic motivation to the AI because otherwise it will would be easy to manipulated by the input.
    This intrinsic motivation needs to have some sort of "lack" algorithms as well as the "sensibility" (as you call it) to find a way forward.

    An easy example is to think about an algorithm for the lack of reaching the end of the level (see above).
    A hard example is to think about an algorithm for the lack of understanding why it is an important question how the universe began.
    A little bit hope can be derived from that as we are far away from an superevil AI, which enslaves humanity on the way to secure all natural resources.

    But why should an AI? The prepositions for the creation are so complex and dependent on the evolution dependent on the environment (We need to build Marvin to truly create an AI in my opinion).

    However, I do not dare to ask Glimmer about his way to deal with the problem of input collection and input preparation (creating the environment).
    Eventhough it is only one level but the simple neural network seen above (still cool and impressive - hey Mario! ) has lots of input processed within the fitness function.
    albinoblanke likes this.
  11. albinoblanke

    albinoblanke Member Claimed IQ: 140+

    The reason why the AI should too is because we don't know how many ways there are into creating true AI and nobody has ever done it. This is one way how it works with us. As long as we don't know a correct way of creating AI, mimicking ourselves mathematically and digitally is the best next thing.
  12. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    Not hard for me. I figured out how to motivate an AI, how to get it to use natural language and create its own language. How to get an AI to have memory within a neural network, not just accessing regular computer memory (which I demonstrated when someone didn't believe I could do it). I even figured out how to cause an AI to have emotions and how to have it evolve very rapidly.

    What do you do when problems like these are easy and getting other people to take it seriously is insurmountable?
  13. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    This is why I'm posting here in this topic about what to do with intelligence. There are hundreds of things like this that are easy for me, that are of profound importance and yet somehow, I'm sweeping floors and cleaning bathrooms for a living.

    I don't know what to work on because when I work on the things that seem like they should matter the most and earn the most money... nobody understands, nobody seems to believe I can do it -- even after I have proved it to them -- and because of this reaction, the best ideas usually don't make money or don't make enough. The ideas that are more focused on helping the world usually make no money at all, they cost money, and I'm in no position to do them.

    Seriously. I presume I am not alone in this. Not here on this forum. Grady Towers, who I heard tested out on IQ tests at 180, wrote about this problem in his famous essay, "The Outsiders" that people like us, especially those at the upper end, often do end up working at mundane, low paying jobs where we don't have to deal with other people much or use our minds much to get the job done. Then we use the time to think about things. Towers worked as a security guard. Yes, a security guard. The guy had an IQ 20 points above Einstein (as estimated by experts).

    Somebody tell me I'm not alone in this. I'm not trying to say I'm smarter than everybody. That's how people take it if I even mention IQ around normal people. For all I know, you guys are smarter than me. Do you have this problem? Do you find complex problems that experts can't solve have solutions that are obvious to you and do actually work, but somehow that doesn't matter? You are treated as irrelevant anyway. This has been going on for my whole life. Ever since I was a child. Do you guys also have this situation?
    albinoblanke and extr3me like this.
  14. extr3me

    extr3me Well-Known Member Claimed IQ: 130+

    I get you completely, and you are not alone, often I want to work in a simple job, one that would not involve social stigma, nor questions, nothing, just working. But I cannot do it, my peers won't allow it, and the mere gaze they give is painful to a extr3me. The thing is... even if you were to mimic a normal person, it's not worth it, there is so much work on it as well, and I guess there is pride involved even, there are certain things that one wouldn't want to do, for example those games in the workplace, childish games; those moments are what breaks me, destroy me completely, complying to that end, to a point were your mind is forced to be in the mud. What I often find is that every workplace I go is a mess, and the worst part is how people "live their lives" I know it sounds a bit too much, how can I say it, go about their problems? I try to minimize, to simplify my life, not make it more complex! Which is what everyone does! Debts! Watch the news and follow everything like some sort of idol!
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017 at 7:46 AM
  15. marom

    marom Well-Known Member Claimed IQ: 140+

    I don't know that there have been very many people w/an IQ higher than Einstein's. However, I do know that those w/high IQ's who have been successful in the World all followed the rules - including Einstein. Bertrand Russell (estimated IQ: 180) went both to college and to graduate school and pursued a career in academia. He did not take to mopping floors because those around him had lower IQ's than he did. Hating and resenting the World and trying to escape it is not the way to go. The World is BIGGER than you are and will win every time, no matter how unfair you might find that. Wise up - get some credentials, and then people will take you seriously. Sure, a lot of dummies go to college. Most of them flunk out. Those dummies who do manage to graduate worked very hard to get their degrees, which only proves what Einstein himself said: hard work is more important than genius when it comes to getting things done. Make no mistake about it: Einstein worked very hard. And it is nonsense that he did not have a distinguished academic career - one of those lies about a person that simply will not go away. I've even heard people avowing that Einstein failed mathematics! Not true. He received the highest grades possible in both mathematics and physics ... Look, that's the way that it is - if you want to work in the World of Ideas, credentials are essential, fair or not, like it or not. W/o the appropriate letters following your name, nobody is going to give you the time of day. Does this mean that great works of genius get neglected by the World? Maybe. But the real question is, "Does the World care?" And the answer is NO.
    Mohsin likes this.
  16. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    Actually, I don't want this job. Yet I earn more money doing this than I did when I was president of an investment banking firm. I know that sounds backwards. I saved the firm from going under and made it profitable, but only barely and other people I thought I could trust took over the company shortly afterwards. I made the mistake of letting them buy enough stock in it that I no longer had majority control. I ended up doing endless unpaid government regulatory paperwork while the other people at the firm made money. I eventually had to sell my share of the firm just to get out.

    Still, I am not earning enough money to pay all the bills. I am going into debt. I could work more at this and barely pay the bills, but instead, I keep taking time off to work on projects that I know are more important and have much more potential.

    You talked about not wanting to mimic a normal person. I agree. I usually don't try very hard to mimic a normal person. It never works. I have always been different and for most of my life, I didn't know why. Even after I was given an IQ test and put in the "gifted" program at school, I thought an IQ score of 156 was not extremely high. I didn't understand why the "gifted" classes and students seemed pretty much the same as regular classes.

    I think I have been greatly affected by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Dunning and Kruger found that people of lower intelligence tended to overestimate their own abilities while people of higher intelligence tended to think others could do the same things they could do and for that reason underestimated their own relative intelligence. I did not think of myself as a "genius" for most of my life. I thought I had good ideas about some things, but I didn't think of myself as inherently better able to come up with such ideas. Or at least, not by any wide margin.

    Even after I came to understand how that "above average" IQ score really compared to others and just how rare it is, I still didn't quite see things the way I do now. But over the past few years, I keep noticing that some of the things I have thought of really are important and far beyond what most people even try to figure out. When experts say they can't figure out how to create an AI that does certain things and I know how to do that... and figured it out in literally two minutes... I think maybe my situation is a little more extreme than I thought. I think some of this stuff is obvious to any intelligent person. But is it? Or is that the Dunning-Kruger Effect?

    When I explained the AI ideas to people, I was not believed. So I wrote a computer program to demonstrate the techniques work. I wrote the program. It proved that I was right about how to create memory within a neural network. I knew it would work without writing the program and I knew exactly how to write the program just like I know how to program the rest of it. I only actually wrote the program to prove to one person that it would work. After I wrote the program, she would not take thirty seconds to look at the results. I didn't bother to add the rest of the features to the program and make it a true AI because WHAT'S THE POINT? If that's how it is treated, I could make the damn thing, it would work and I'd be lucky if anybody said, "That's nice" while I go broke because how can you make money from an AI if nobody gives a damn? How do you pay the bills if you spend your time writing code for an AI and it doesn't make money? Yes, I could have it work on investments, but that can be done much faster and easier with algorithms and when I did that, nobody cared. Almost nobody. When you have very little to invest, it takes quite a while for it to grow, even when you are earning thousands of percent yield annually. Everybody else is going around being lucky to get 5% or 10% yield a year and major corporations have been built on providing that. I showed people how to get thousands of percent per year. I proved that it worked, I showed them how even the poorest people could do this starting with an investment of less than one dollar and without entrusting anyone else with their money. I held meetings and explained it and... nobody cared. I gave people money to invest... just gave them my own money if they would just do what I showed them how to do that would earn them thousands of percent yield per year. They just spent the money. I started a cryptocurrency that has gone up 1,400% in value in less than two years and I had to give it away to people to get them to take it and even now they act like that's nothing, but the banks and the mutual funds where they earn 5% a year or less are serious financial institutions and their products are you know, real professional investments.

    This is something I thought people would care about. If I ever tell them I know how to build a time machine that can take you to the far future, they would of course think I'm insane. It only took me about thirty seconds to design the time machine because Einstein did all the theoretical work for it with his general theory of relativity. I just noticed that we now have the technology to actually build the thing. I can't do it in my garage, it would cost millions and can only operate in space. But here's a quick reality check... I feel like it's almost a cheap trick to say I know how to build a time machine, but it's true. I'm suspecting some of you do as well. But maybe that's the Dunning-Kruger Effect screwing me up again.

    Who here can tell me... based on Einstein's theories... how you can build a time machine that can take people to any point in the future, no matter how distant while only a small amount of time passes for the passengers. If it's obvious to you, I will not be surprised. It's very obvious to me. Note that I said it can travel to the future. I did not say it could travel to the past, though I think that with a modification that might also be possible. Can't tell for sure without building it and doing the experiment to find out.
  17. extr3me

    extr3me Well-Known Member Claimed IQ: 130+

    Okay, let's do it, not the time machine, but a way to earn money without becoming something nefarious, I can only think about a zombie or the like. Let's build a team, I'm waiting for a job offer to complete, but I'm all ears, I'm by no means a good programmer, there is just one thing... is not that I don't care, but... really, how can you care about it? I must find a reason beyond just survival, I would do a whatever job if I had just to survive... there must be a reason to live, and yes, what you said about people not caring, is so devastating, I'm not as cool as you are though but I know one thing, people are like a piranhado, if they see you trying to build something they will attack, leaving nothing behind. So, I'm sort of shocked and freak about people. Sometimes I believe they are just perfect... for a society that only the chosen are allowed to live, the rest are meant to be slaves! Okay, enough torment!
  18. Glimmer

    Glimmer Active Member Claimed IQ: 150+

    I did not take to mopping floors because those around me have lower IQs. I did it because the 2008 recession was hitting, I had immigrated to another country where the licenses I had for the financial industry were not applicable and I was desperate for money.

    Wise up, you say? That's a bit condescending it seems to me. I am aware that people will respect credentials... sometimes. I am also aware of how it takes years to get credentials in just one field. And a lot of money that I don't have. I also can't help but notice that people really don't care about the college degree that I do have. I have zero confidence that more degrees are going to change anything much. I am aware that Einstein did not fail mathematics and that he did well in academia. I'm not sure I do want to "work in the world of ideas" where my success will depend on my ability to get other people to see the validity of my ideas. I have plenty of proof of how hard that is regardless of the quality of the ideas. I think I need to work in a field where the ideas are worth something whether people understand or acknowledge them or not. Because people almost always do not understand or acknowledge. The more important the idea, the less likely it will be understood or acknowledged. Speaking of Einstein, his special theory of relativity (the first relativity theory) was not understood or acknowledged at first. It ran so counter to mainstream physics and was so counterintuitive that most physicists wouldn't believe it even after it was proven correct by direct observation in 1919. These weren't dumb people, they were physicists. There was an effort by some other physicists to get the German government to ban his theory because they could not accept it as true. They used the fact that Einstein was Jewish to try to convince the Nazi government that his theory and quantum theory were all just Jewish corruption of science. Fortunately, Einstein moved to the United States which put him out of reach of the Nazis and even the Nazis wouldn't ban his theories. Instead, they used them to try to build an atomic bomb.

    Eventually, Einstein's theories came to be widely accepted as correct decades later after they had been proven to correctly predict physical phenomena that other theories could not explain or predict. (Such as the apparent displacement of stars near the sun during a solar eclipse in 1919.)

    My point isn't that it isn't fair to ignore good ideas that have been proven to work. My point is that it is stupid. It is insane. It also makes it very hard for me to know what I should work on. On that, I guess I'm just expressing frustration. It's hard to talk about that with most people because to them it just sounds like my only point is "I'm smarter than you," when that's not the point. Here, where some or all of you may be smarter than me, maybe I can express this without that reaction. Maybe I can even get useful advice. I hear your advice as "get more college degrees and work harder." I am not convinced that will solve the problem. I also don't have the money to go back to college. If I did, I could probably invest that much money and grow it to the point where I could do a lot without convincing anyone of anything except to work for me for pay. I do work hard, but I have had many experiences where hard work, sometimes years of it, did not pay off at all and other times, a little bit of work on the right thing and I could earn a lot more money.
  19. albinoblanke

    albinoblanke Member Claimed IQ: 140+

    Wouldn't you need a huge amount of energy to build one? I would actually try to look into quantum mechanics as well, probably even some particle physics. Does your time machine have anything to do with speed? If so, it would explain why you need it in outer space, more room for it to move but that still doesn't solve the energy problem. Or do plan to warp spacetime with it? which would also require a huge amount of energy.
  20. marom

    marom Well-Known Member Claimed IQ: 140+

    Well, the World isn't fair, is it? ... So, Einstein had to wait for years to see his ideas accepted - well, Newton had by then held the field for almost 3 centuries, ah, well ... I don't know what country you live in, but don't tell me the United States because in the United States, getting aid for school is relatively easy, even if all one can get is loans, not grants. A degree must be appropriate to the kind of work that you wish to do. A degree in English Literature will not get you a job as a mathematician ... It's hard, I know. I know from personal experience. I've lost most of my life to mental illness. I didn't even get to go to college until I was 49. By time I finish grad school, I'll be 56. My age will count heavily against me, no matter what I try to do. But that's the way that it will be, and either I accept it and try to work with and around it, or else I die w/o having done many of the things that I wanted to do. Your life has handed you its own difficulties. I sympathize - however, my advice remains essentially unchanged - no matter what you want to do, you've got to find out what the requirements are and meet those requirements ... Yes, you could go ahead and make a lot of money. Do that if you think that doing so will bring you satisfaction. But understand that you will never have academic standing, no matter how much money you pile up ... It seems to me - from what you've said about your ideas - that the only place for you is the World of Ideas. If that is so, then the World of Ideas has its rules, whether you find those rules fair. No matter what you do, you will not change the fact that your ideas haven't got the proverbial snow-ball's chance in Hell w/o academic clout. There's only one way to get that - and that's to have a PhD - and a long list of published articles to your name. Right or wrong, that's the way that it is. If you're going to let money stop you, then you're not much for the struggle, anyway. If you really want something, you've got to be willing to crawl across a desert on your belly to get it - you've got to be willing to make it the very reason that you go on breathing. Otherwise, you don't really want it ...

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